Was love invented by French women? ? Is the breast an erotic, maternal, political object? ? Marilyn Yalom, specialist in literature and gender, offers unexpected answers to these questions by combining French and American perspectives.
Marilyn Yalom is a specialist in gender and cultural studies and teaches at Stanford University. Her first stay in France dates from 1952, when she participated in a university exchange between the Sorbonne and Wellesley College. His love affair with France has continued ever since. She notably published Blood Sisters. The French Revolution in Women’s Memory (Basic Books, 1993) and The Breast, a story (Galaade, 2010).
We met her on the occasion of the release in France of her latest work, How the French invented love (Galaade Editions 2013): through a study of great literary texts, the American historian invites us to a French history of love.
class>
You can also see this video on daily motion
The Life of Ideas : Is there a love « American style » and a love « French style » ?
Marilyn Yalom : Yes, I think there are differences between French love and American love. In France, there is the blending of the body and the heart, with an emphasis on sensuality and romantic love. In the United States, the heart is important – the body comes next – as is what we call “the understanding » within the couple. I would say that there is more mystery in the French couple than in the American couple. We try to be more transparent in American couples, where it is fashionable to tell each other everything – which is not the case in France.
The Life of Ideas : By reading the French title of your book, How the French invented love (Galaade, 2013), then the book itself, one cannot help but think that the title could have been How French women invented love. Indeed, the history of love seems to have been written by French women since the XIIe century.
Marilyn Yalom : Women played a crucial role in the invention of love and in the development of this idea. Very early on, we had female troubadours and writers, like Marie de France. In this sense, French women played a very important role. Moreover, from the XIIe century, woman is at the center of the idea of love, not only as the object of man’s desire, but also as the subject of her own desire.
This, in my opinion, makes a very clear distinction between French love and love in other countries (such as Italy, Germany or England). The French do not have a myth around Beatrice or around the eternal feminine, as with Goethe. No ! We have women, in literature – and, let us hope, in life too – with awakening sexuality like Yseult, Guinevere, up to the women of Marguerite Duras.
Source: flickr
The Life of Ideas : At XIXe century, Emma Bovary learned about love in novels. You mention the fact that cinema has taken up the torch of the novel as a vehicle for representing love, both in France and abroad. As for the Internet, it now shapes romantic relationships. Could you come back to these mutations? ?
Marilyn Yalom : Throughout all periods of history, it is through these forms – the novel, the film and now the Internet – that we learn about love. From them, we learn to behave as lovers. Of course, when we think of Madame Bovary, she who had read romantic novels, had an idea of what a lover should be like. You must first have a lover, as she says at one point: “ Finally I have a lover ! »
This idea – this trio, consisting of husband, wife and lover – dates back to the Middle Ages. It is one of the great myths of literature, a myth which penetrates the mentality of the time and especially the mentality of this poor woman. We know the work of René Girard, for whom desire is mimetic: we imitate the desire that we find either in novels, in films, or on the Internet.
The Life of Ideas : You have written a fascinating history of the breast. The breast, too, is a historical object, at the intersection of the erotic and the maternal. Today, breasts can be exhibited, but also used as a political instrument.
Marilyn Yalom : I would like to come back to another book that I did before The Breast. It is a book about the French Revolution seen through women’s memoirs. Since I knew nothing about XVIIIe century in its political aspect, I was touched by the importance of the breast at that time. In the work of Élisabeth Badinter, I discovered that women of a certain social class did not breastfeed their children and that the breast had become a political object during the XVIIIe century. Every time I found the image of the breast as a political object – until the Revolution and even after – I took notes. This is the beginning of my book on the breast.
I knew from the start that this book would have a chapter on the political breast and, since I had the possibility of putting images in it, I showed that of The Republic by Daumier, as well as the famous painting by Delacroix on the revolution of 1830.
Source: Wikipedia
Source: flickr
I took this theme and applied it to women’s struggles during the 1960s, 1970s and 1980s ; women who, in demonstrations for breast cancer research or for family planning, wanted to show their bare breasts, their chests. They took advantage of this element of shock. This is what is happening with the Femen group, with the difference that today, we have to go a little further than at the time for us to react.
The Life of Ideas : Can we violate the breast ? For some, the bra is violence against the breast ; for others, it’s piercing or breast surgery. All these modifications of the breast tell us about our intimate relationship with the body.
Marilyn Yalom : Breast violence is seen in pornography. My personal definition of pornography is the combination of sexuality and violence. Without violence, it would be an erotic film or erotic literature. Personally, when I see men, in pornographic magazines, who stick needles into a woman’s breast, it is pure pornography, clear violence.
Concerning the bra, in my opinion, it is not real violence. There are women who like to wear a bra, others who don’t want underwire (I love the French word “ frame » !), and others who want to wear anything that allows them to have a beautiful neckline.
As for breast surgery, here too, we must distinguish between women who have lost one breast (or two) and who would like to have reconstruction, those who have very heavy breasts and who no longer want to be bothered and, well of course, those who would like to have a larger chest. On that, I say nothing.
The Life of Ideas : You cite a comparative survey of American and French seniors, aged 50 to 64. To the question “ Can love exist without a fulfilling sex life? ? », only 34 % of French people answer in the affirmative, compared to 83 % of Americans. Do motherhood and age weaken the erotic relationship ?
Marilyn Yalom : I believe there is a difference between the French ideal and the American ideal. For the French woman, the wife perhaps counts before the mother. At least, French women – as well as French men, I hope – want to keep something special in the couple. The woman, once a mother, then does her best to keep this mystery, this romantic aspect in the couple. I would say that, for the American woman, once she becomes a mother, it is motherhood that takes precedence over marriage.
As for the question of age, there too, there is a difference. In my book, I ask this question: for people between 50 and 64 years old, can true love exist without an erotic life? ? The French say no. A maximum of a third of the population surveyed accepts this idea, while more than 80% of Americans say: “ Yes, love can exist without this sexual side “.
Regarding your question about age, yes, love can last a lifetime. Of course, with age, the body no longer functions as it did in youth, but that doesn’t mean that love disappears. I really liked this movie Lovewhich won the best foreign film award in the United States. We see love even in deplorable and painful conditions, when the woman suffers all the humiliations of age. But we feel the love in this couple, even though both of them are over 80 years old. I believe that love always remains sensual until the end, even if it is no longer sexual.
Transcription: Silvan Giraud